Pahl Saraniemi or Pahl Jurmu

[Katie]

I am trying to verify a relative. The two names above are in question, are they the same person?
Brief history
Father is Elias Saraniemi born Posio, Kuusamo, Oulu May 1791 - married to Catharina Timisjärvi born Mar 1792 also of Kuusamo.
Had a daughter, Sophia Saraniemi born Nov 1821 or Jan 1824 in Kuusamo or Rovaniemi.
Who is Elias's father? Pahl (Pohl or Paulis) Saraniemi born Feb 1758 in Kuusamo or
Paulis Jurmu (Jurma) also born Feb 1758 in Kuusamo.
Both show Sigrid as wife and that Pahl died in 1811.
Sigrid and Pahl were married December. 1781 and her name is Sigrid Joh.dr Pernu.
Thank You
Janice

[Katie]

Have not heard yet on my request for verification of last name.
The people were born in Kuusamo and I can not recall what screen I saw it on, but there was a reference "Pähl Jurmu ell Saraniemi.
I found these records, but because the date I'm looking for is 1758 or prior my options for looking up are limited.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Hiski Project. Sukuhistoria does not give me information for 1758 in Kuusamo.
Kuusamo - married
• Man's last name: JURMU => Jurmu, Jurmu ell: Saraniemi, Jurmu el. Patron, Jurmu el. Koppelojärvi, Jurmu el. Udd, Jurmu el: Saraniemi, Jurmu el. Koppelo, Jurmu el. Karasti, Jurmu ell. Koppelojärvi, Jurmus
• Wife's first name: SIGRID => Sigfrid
Announc. Married Village Farm Man Wife Village Farm

7.12.1781 Dreng Påhl Jurmu Bded. Sigrid Joh:dr Pernu
Above shows Pähl marrying a Sigrid Pernu, and I have a Pahl Saraniemi married to a Sigrid.
==========================================
This shows Pehr Jurmu born/christened same days as Pähl Saraniemi
Kuusamo
Christened
Link to this event [ 3998330 ]
Born / Christened 6.2.1758 9.7.1758
Village / Farm
Father Pehr Jurmu
Mother Marget Carjalainen
Child Paulus (conf:)
Own comment
Original comment

Links SSHY - Digiarkisto

1148
6.2.1758 9.7.1758 Pehr Jurmu Marget Carjalainen Paulus

ARE PEHR JURMU AND MARGET CARJALAINEN (KARJALAINEN) PAHL SARANIEMI'S PARENTS.
Hope you can solve this for me.
Thank You
Janice

[JaskaS]

See: http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/ ... 229/66.htm
or the same page more readable at: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=5579134

Topmost: widow Pehr Jurmu b. 1685 d. 3.2.1764
son Johan b. 1717 followed by his wife and children
--
son Pehr b. 1720
his wife Marget b. 1727
their children, among them Påhl b. 6.2.1758

Listing (in HisKi) all children born in Kuusamo by father named Pehr Jurmu, you'll match the siblings as well. Notice that mother Marget Carjalainen (= Karjalainen) is once listed with patronymic Andersdotter - her father then should be Anders Karjalainen.

Jaska

[Katie]

Thank You, JaskaS.
I looked at that 2nd link you gave me earlier as it was more readable and the more I looked at it the more I confused myself because I was not sure that there was a linkage of Saraniemi and Jurmu. And I thought what are the odds of Pahl Saraniemi AND Pehr Jurmu being born in the same city on the same day and christened on the same day. Are they the same person or not? That's why we have experts like you to make sense of our findings and put us back on tracking our family history.
Thank you for clearing the fog that was hanging over my head. Hope you enjoy the comping weekend.
Janice

[JaskaS]

Sorry Janice, that I didn't pay attention to the last name. Having most of my ancestors in the Western part of the country, that's never been too important
Communion books (rippikirja) of Kuusamo seem to be lacking between 1774-1797, but the next one has Påhl Saraniemi on the same page as some of Jurmus:
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/ ... 29/124.htm or http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=5579578
You can recognize eg. [uncle Johan's] widow Susanna b. 1724.
I'm not familiar with Kuusamo, and cannot tell what's be reason for the new name Saraniemi (perhaps a new farm devided from Jurmu), but definetely Påhl Saraniemi is the same that was born as Påhl Jurmu.
In HisKi you can even find these births:
4.12.1787 8.12.1787 Posio Påhl Jurmu ell: Saraniemi Sigrid Paulus
19.6.1825 19.6.1825 Elias Jurmu el: Saraniemi Carin 23 Anna

Jaska

P.S. abbreviations ell: / el: come from eller meaning or.
J.S.

[Katie]

Thank you, Jaska for getting back to me on this issue. I'll check it out.
Have a nice weekend, one of the few left for summer.
Janice

[user_123]

I thought I'd try to take part into this conversation as the people in question are direct paternal ancestors of mine. Unfortunately my research is flawed and largely unfinished but here goes.

Elias' father was Påhl (Paulus) Jurmu b. 6.2.1758 d. 13.6.1811. He was married twice (Sigrid Pernu b.1762-d.1795 and Walborg Mursu b.1757-d.1820).

Påhl's father was Pehr Jurmu (1720-1777) and mother Margeta Carjalainen (1728-1789). Pehr's father was also Pehr Jurmu (1685-1764) who came to Kuusamo possibly from Jurmu in Pudasjärvi and was previously known as Pehr Pehrson Wataja.

It seems that Pehr's (b.1720) family's third son Henric (1750-1793) started the Saraniemi house in Peräposio but it was his little brother Påhl who inherited or continued the farm when Henric died and the name became attached to Påhl as well as his children. The farm or the last name did not exist before Henric. After Påhl, Saraniemi farm was inherited by Elias and then by his son Matti.

Let me know if you have any questions regarding their ancestry, I'd be happy to help with the (scarce) information I've gathered.

Jussi